[00:00:08] Speaker A: My name is Nancy Farrow, also known.
[00:00:11] Speaker B: As Mama Lou, and I'm the founder of Epic Experience.
Epic Experian's mission is to empower adult cancer survivors and thrivers to live beyond cancer.
I hope that as you listen to campfires of hope, living beyond cancer, you find hope, healing and empowerment. Through stories and education, we aim to guide those impacted by cancer and more importantly, offer love and support to anyone out there who needs it.
This is beyond cancer.
[00:01:07] Speaker C: Hello, everyone. This is Gail, aka Sunshine. Today we have Bill Wardwell joining us around the campfire. Bill, thank you so much for being here today.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Hello. Hi.
[00:01:17] Speaker C: How are you today? Why don't we just start, actually, by having you tell us a little bit about yourself. This is actually the first time I've met Bill, so I'm excited to, to learn more about you, too.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: Oh, thank you, Gail. So my name's Bill. I was born in Chicago in 1960 and where I was a kid. And eventually my parents moved us to New York, but we spent a year outside of Santa Fe, New Mexico. So we went from Chicago to Santa Fe to New York. It's like the Bugs bunny thing, where you take a left turn at, at Albuquerque. Similar journey for us.
[00:01:59] Speaker C: I love it.
And then you stayed in New York for a while, and now where do you live?
[00:02:06] Speaker B: I live in Seattle, Washington. So I was in New York until 1991, and then I got married and, well, moved to Seattle, got married, had kids, and. Yep, been in Seattle ever since.
[00:02:19] Speaker C: Awesome.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: And I love it out here.
[00:02:21] Speaker C: Well, can you tell us one fun fact about yourself?
[00:02:25] Speaker B: Well, sure. I was thinking about that. It's a hard one. But then I really thought, well, what makes me me and what I really loved growing up was science fiction. And my favorite show growing up was Star Trek. And in New York, I went to Star Trek conventions, and I collected comic books. So, you know Comic Con now? Well, Star Trek conventions are the early versions of that. And so I used to go to a lot of Star Trek conventions. I knew all the episodes and the dialogue by heart and. And then my favorite movie back then was 2001, which I saw the first time when I was. I was eight years old.
[00:03:05] Speaker C: You are a true trekkie.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: Yes, I am.
Yes, I am.
[00:03:10] Speaker C: Well, the thing that brings us together today, obviously, is cancer.
So why don't you tell us a little bit about your diagnosis when, how treatment, surgery, kind of all of those things.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, so I was applying for a job here. I was working contract at a big tech company here, and they were interviewing me for a full time position and it was like, okay, well, I'll go in for a physical, just to the doctor, just to check everything out. I was 37 still. Go check everything out. Heart.
Heart and cholesterol, all of that stuff. And this was in May of 1998, and the guy asked me if I'd had a flu recently. I was like, no, I've been pretty healthy. He said, huh? You got high blood counts, white counts, and it's like, well, golly, they checked it again. And eventually he sent me to the oncologist. And you don't go to an oncologist just to say hello, right.
[00:04:12] Speaker C: Just to say hi.
It doesn't usually work that way.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: They say if you're in a barber, you're going to get a haircut.
[00:04:21] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: And, well, long story short, the oncologist told me I had leukemia. It was like the most surreal thing ever, because I didn't feel sick. I was relatively healthy. I had one child.
My career was okay. I didn't feel sick at all. My wife, though, at the time, she had a lot of medical knowledge and sort of knew it wasn't a good deal.
The thing was, okay, wait and see. With cll leukemia, which is a chronic lymphocytic leukemia, and it's mostly what most people who get that kind of leukemia are older people, like my age now or older. And so I was pretty young to get it. And he was like, well, okay, we'll wait and see until it gets worse. And of course, it did get worse. I was getting night sweats and lymph nodes, and it just got worse and worse and worse. And eventually my white counts, they hit. When they hit a certain level, I think was 100,000 units per unit, whatever. Then I had to do chemotherapy.
So the whole treatment process was. I did several rounds of chemotherapy, then a bone marrow transplant, which was completely traumatic.
Yeah, it was horrible. And it would just. I was just, like, so exhausted and tired. I made a mistake of. So I was working at another company at the time of bank, and I made the mistake thinking that, well, we're getting. I made the mistake thinking that I could work and do chemotherapy at the same time. I thought, oh, I'll take one for the team, and I'll get rewarded. And people think I was doing something like. Like heroic.
Heroic. That's exactly the word. I was being heroic. And by doing this horrible thing, and I was just getting worse and worse and worse. I was tired, and, um. And the chemo was just. It was just taking it out of me. Um, and my marriage wasn't going well, and, um, not the end of that chemo. I was like, so why? I mean, you know, it takes you six months to recover from chemotherapy to get any kind of. Any kind of thing, and your body is like, your blood counts are in every which way, and you're on all these different drugs, steroids and everything else, and you're on all these different drugs.
All I wanted to do was sleep, and at work they were like, oh, how come you weren't at the meeting? Oh, I was in the chemo chair. Sorry I missed the meeting. We didn't have zoom back then, and, you know.
Yeah, it was hard. Then I had another chemo in zero six. So that was in. Oh, that chemo was in zero three. My second one was in January of zero six. And then.
[00:07:31] Speaker C: Because it came back.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: Yeah, it kept coming back. And each time it came back that the remission was. Was less. So, yeah, in December of zero six, after I'd had it in January, they said, well, we can't keep doing chemo and we have to have a bone marrow transplant. It's a bone marrow transplant. And then that was horrible. And then GVHD, and that was horrible.
[00:07:58] Speaker C: What is that? In case people don't know.
[00:08:00] Speaker B: Oh, graft versus host disease. That's.
Bone marrow transplant is. So leukemia is cancer of the bone marrow. Really? They call it a blood cancer, but technically it's your bone marrow that has the cancer, and it's producing bad blood cells. I did have a relapse of cancer in. Well, let's see. In 2015, I had cancer again and chemo. Yep. So that was.
So the good news is that I haven't had anything since then.
[00:08:35] Speaker C: Congratulations. There is good news.
[00:08:39] Speaker B: Very good.
[00:08:40] Speaker C: Well, that's going on almost 910 years, right?
[00:08:44] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. Yes, it is.
Thank you.
[00:08:48] Speaker C: So with all the physical, obviously, it drained you physically, emotionally, what was going on. At the same time, how is it affecting you emotionally?
[00:08:57] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
It was just really. Everything was just. It was exhausting.
Exhausting. Also, my marriage fell apart, so my oldest daughter has down syndrome, and then I went on disability as well, and it was just kind of hard. And my. My wife at the time, well, it was just kind of a lot, you know, to.
[00:09:29] Speaker C: Oh, well, yeah, I mean, it is not just one thing. It's completely a lot. It's not just one thing. Definitely.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. And so. And I was. Emotionally, I was, you know, I felt like I should be able to carry. I should be able to hold my own, I should be able to support my family. I should be able to do my job. I should be able to still do my work.
I should be able to be a hero. And like you said, I should be able to do all of that. And society kind of brings us up to say, oh, you know, you can do it. You know, you can do it all. And we don't complain. We just, we just, we just hold our own and we're, and we're stoics about it. And I tried all of that and everything just fell apart.
[00:10:15] Speaker C: How did it work? How did it work for you?
[00:10:18] Speaker B: It sucked.
[00:10:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't think we, I think I've learned also that we're not meant to hold it all together, hold it all in. At some point we're going to get full. I talked about being an emotional stuffer. It's the same thing. We, you get to a certain point where you can't hold it in. Right?
[00:10:37] Speaker B: You can't. You can't hold it in. I mean, work sucked and. Well, yeah, and they, you know, eventually they laid me off and, and my marriage fell apart and that got really brutal and awful. And so there was a time when.
So I had the cancer and then had to fight these other. I had to fight the divorce battle, I had to fight at work and staying relevant at work.
[00:11:07] Speaker C: So all of this, I think, led you to write a blog post recently for epic experience.
You wrote about your cancer journey, and you were very transparent about your survivorship and the fact that it was not easy. And if you don't mind, I'm going to quote one thing that you said at one point. You said, I found myself listless and without direction. I did not connect with the world around me. I was emotionally devastated. I felt alone. I felt I had cancer. I felt I had fought cancer alone.
Can you tell people listening what that felt like to go through it alone and how you were able to navigate that, which sounds like a very hard situation?
[00:11:58] Speaker B: Well, yeah, so I did feel very alone because I realized that the belief structures that I had grown up with and the value system that we were raised up, it just didn't count for anything anymore. And this idea that if you do something for the team, the team will have your back, well, they really did not. And so my family went away, my career and job went away, and I was just kind of left there with every belief system kind of torn away. And there was a really depressing time.
And also the thing was, is that, like, I was going to the hospital all the time. I didn't have a, you know, the, you know, the divorce lawyers were really nasty and awful in the, in the. Her lawyer. Well, yeah, just a lot of dirty trick stuff.
And here I'm a cancer patient, and still there are people. There's still people who are relentless.
And so it's like, do I really have to put up with this? And what am I doing all of this? What am I doing all of this for? And so there was a time so I had caregivers take care of me. My mother helped pay for it.
There's no way. You cannot have caregivers, because I had no immune system for a couple of years, meaning that anytime somebody sneezed, I would get pneumonia and I would have to have it go be in the ER immediately. I mean, you can't stop at go. You can't do anything. The minute my temperature gets to 99 degrees, I got to stop what I'm doing and go to the hospital, and the caregivers had to do something or call the ambulance, and I had to get to the hospital, and so I can't delay, and I would be terrified every single time.
It's like, I really don't want to go to the hospital.
But then. But I was in the hospital a lot, and then I became emotionally, I sort of like the way after a while, it's like, this is a safe place. I like the hospital. You know, there's, there's food, and there's people taking care of you, and you're not alone. You're not alone, right. I mean, yeah, you're with all the other sick people.
[00:14:41] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: You know, and, and every need, and then I know, and I realized, you know, at least here I'm, I'm a priority. And, you know, I really, really missed the hospital. So there was a time when I was. This is like, in the. In 20 12, 20 11, 20 13, when I was, I was my, my immuno immune system was starting to kick in, and they started taking me off the steroids, and that was the steroids as a whole chapter of awfulness.
[00:15:17] Speaker C: For another podcast.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: For another podcast.
But, yeah, so there was a time when my health was slowly returning, but so I wasn't going to the hospital so much anymore, but I was still not able to do the things that I wanted to do. I really wanted to have my life back.
But then it was like, there was a really depressing time. I was. So the way I described this period is, like, about two or three years where I was too sick to be well and too well to be sick and meaning that I couldn't go to the hospital, because I was too well for that. I really miss going to the emergency room, and I miss being carted off. I mean, I was sort of. Whenever I. They sort of recognized me at the emergency room, so whenever I showed up, I went straight away back to the room.
[00:16:11] Speaker C: Special treatment.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: They got special treatment there. And, um, you know, so, um. And I. And I missed that. So there was a time, and it was in May of 2013. It was, like, nice spring in Seattle. It was nice day. And I lived. I lived by myself in this house. And there are young families on. On either side of me. And I was like, the weird. I was, like, the weird guy, the uncle.
And there are these young families with little kids, and I was, like, the weird guy who lived between them. When I showed up, I had a walker, and I was sick. And there was a time in May where the. The birds were out and the kids were running around and. And the windows were open. I could hear people out on the street. And I was just like, you know, I just. I just can't deal. And I just lied down in the bed all day long. I didn't. I didn't get up and do anything. I was, like, so terribly depressed and alone. And the. And the loneliness I felt also.
Well, yeah, I felt.
I also felt, you know, if I'm going to live, you know, I really had to. I had to really rely on myself, because what I told you before, I. I really felt I. I couldn't rely on anybody. I couldn't rely on them emotionally or otherwise. And. And, like, everything I felt had let me down. And I said, well, you know, if I'm going to live, I really going to have to do it on my own. I'm gonna have to summon the willpower within me to do that.
Yeah, that's what I felt like. I felt like I had to get it from inside to do it because the world wasn't going to do it for me.
[00:18:18] Speaker C: No. How did you. I mean, that's very tough, because I think you did see that people around you had left. So how were you able to kind of pull yourselves up? Pull yourself up by your bootstraps right on the inside? How are you able to do that?
[00:18:33] Speaker B: Well, that's a really good question.
You know, I watched a lot of.
Well, I did. Okay. I watched a lot of movies. I mean, particularly, I watched war movies and western movies.
[00:18:47] Speaker C: Okay.
Whatever it takes. If that's what they encouraged you emotionally, then I'm glad you found us.
[00:18:57] Speaker B: Well, I did. And, um. And what else did what else did I do? Um, well, it was really hard to read because I'm on all the drugs and everything and chemo brain.
[00:19:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: So I could. I couldn't. I couldn't read at all, you know, I got sort of sucked into playing online. I played online poker when. When you could do that. And I was sort of good. I was good at that.
But I don't know, I've always had.
I suppose, in my own personal. In my own personality, I guess I've always had a resilient part of me, I suppose, and always, I can make it through this next thing. I've always kind of had that. And there was a time when I was in the ICU for a long, long. Or that story that I told about being on the train when I was in the ICU for, I think it was like four weeks or six weeks, and I was.
And I was pretty much as good as dead then. And my. And everyone had come to Seattle to Uw hospital, and everyone had come there to see me. And I was very nearly dad and my brother. My brother, who lives in Norway, has lived there, and he came all the way over and.
And I was, like, very nearly dead from this, um, this, um, pneumonia. And, um.
And when he left, I just grabbed his arm and I said, you know, you just never give up hope. And that's. That's. That's how I would describe myself, you know? Yeah. So I. I guess, you know, I don't. I didn't give up, and not giving up was. Was part of.
Of who I was and that.
Yeah. So I don't know how I pulled everything else together.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: I hope you enjoy this episode of our Campfires with Hope podcast. Here at Epic Experience, we make it our goal to serve the cancer community through our collective programs such as this podcast, our week long adventure camps, regional programs across the country, and thrive VR, a custom virtual reality experience benefiting patients in cancer centers. If you would like to be a part of our community of supporters, please go to epicexperience.org and click donate.
Thank you for listening to campfires of stories of cancer with gratitude. Wingman also known as Colin Farrow, executive director of Epic Experience. Epic experience is a registered 501 organization.
[00:21:54] Speaker C: Were you finally able to find community support system outside the ones that had kind of failed?
[00:22:03] Speaker B: Well, yes. Yes, exactly. So after a while, I mean, I said that, so I did. This time I felt very alone. And a part of it was that people want to help, but they don't know how to help, and people are scared of cancer. They don't really know. People say, well, why don't you try meditation? Like meditation is going to make cancer go away. Or why don't you try eating healthy foods or take these vitamins? Oh, my doctor and my person who runs a health food store has all of these vitamins. Maybe they'll make the leukemia. So everybody had all of these suggestions. Well, they're just trying, but how did I find community so that, so initially, I really was trying to reconnect because I realized, you know, lying there and being depressed isn't, isn't, isn't really a way. So whenever I get into that thing where I'm depressed and not doing anything, I have to, like, get moving and figure. So I did some volunteer activities. I did, I did tamian training with leukemia society, and that got me sort of back involved. And I did, I did some volunteer stuff with american cancer society, and I did things like that. And then I tried meetups, and then I had, you know, there were people in Seattle, and I started reaching out to people again.
There were, there were, I guess, when, when the worst of it, you know, is feeling sorry for myself. And then, but I came to realize, you know, well, there really were people who loved and cared for me. And, or there are, I mean, that's, you know, and there are, I mean, they did come to Seattle, and there were all the doctors, and there's a whole medical system that, that saved my life. I mean, they, they really did. I really had the best medical care you could expect to have. And, um, and, and all the people who were there were, were just dedicated to saving my life. And then there was part of me when I was in that really depressed stage, it's like, oh, what did I do to deserve all of that care? So that was part of it. And so I tried these volunteer activities, and they didn't do it for me, but at least it got me out a little bit. And then I tried meetups and I tried writing.
I tried a writing club, but when I would get really kind of, like, into something real, people, like, where did that come from? You know, that's totally off topic. And, you know, and, but there, you know, so I did a lot of baby steps into things and, and, you know, my, as I, as I got healthy again, as my health was returning, my mother would have, she would have these trips for all of her kids and her grandchildren, and we did some family vacations here and there, and I was able to go back east and see cousins, and people really did care, and they'd ask how I was doing, and I was able to see, well, there really has been, the whole time a large support structure for me. I just didn't realize that. And a lot of people actually been over backwards to do stuff for me.
[00:26:04] Speaker C: Well, and eventually you found up an experience, right? Did you find community when you went to camp?
[00:26:11] Speaker B: I did, indeed. Oh. It was like. It was like the only community that I had met that. That really had gone through a lot of the same things that.
[00:26:21] Speaker C: Exactly, yeah. Yeah. It is a unique experience and that it doesn't matter what kind of cancer you've had, right? You've all had cancer, and there are some similarities, and just having that, having to hear the shocking news you have cancer is one thing that binds you. Having to go through the kind of treatment that you went through, having to go through recurrences, feeling lonely. I'm sure there are a lot of common experiences. I think so I hope you did find community around those things when you. When you went to camp.
[00:26:57] Speaker B: Well, we did indeed. We did indeed. And one aspect I liked it was the small. The small section where they divided us into small groups, and that was really meaningful because our group was the same group, and we had discussions and in each. Each day, the way it was structured was. Was each day was. We started with diagnosis and how are your relationships impacted? And everything is the same. I mean. I mean, everyone goes through the same thing and, you know, in the. In the same stuff, like with. With work and with, um, with family and people that you're with, not wanting to deal with it.
[00:27:38] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:27:38] Speaker B: And, um. And then you do find that people you thought were friends really, really probably weren't great friends, and then people you never thought about were probably more friends or more committed than you would give them credit for.
I used to be. I still can be kind of judgmental and very demanding of people, and that's kind of how I am.
And the people I thought that would. That I could rely on, I couldn't. And the people that I used to be disdainful of, well, that's not the right good word. But the people that I was less kind to ended up being more supportive. I mean, there was somebody.
She came and took care of me, and then she became very emotionally attached to me, and I couldn't, but I didn't. I couldn't, you know, I couldn't, um. I couldn't reciprocate because I had so much going on. And, um. And I wasn't very kind to this. To this person. And, um, I felt badly, but at the same time, you know, I couldn't, you know, I was there fighting for my life, and this, this person wanted me to be an emotional partner, and I couldn't. I couldn't do that, you know? And, and, yeah.
[00:29:07] Speaker C: Is there anything else that you would share that I haven't asked you about? Like, if someone's listening, maybe they're either a survivor or they're a caregiver. Is there anything that you would share that I haven't asked you about?
[00:29:21] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I think it's what I. What I would. I. What I did learn. So I went, I went through the process. Process of feeling abandoned, but coming around to the fact that, that I wasn't abandoned. And I think, you know, I really learned that for the most part, people. People are good and there are. And people do love you and support you, and even in their way. And I was able to make peace with my own family that I got divorced from, was able to make peace while not my family, my kids, but it was really hard on my children, you know? Cause they went through a lot of trauma to see their dad in the hospital all the time. Oh, yeah.
But being able to make peace with my ex and my kids was very meaningful. And what I think is important is that, like I said, I went through this. I really got excellent medical care, and a lot of people don't have that. And so I came away from it feeling, well, you know, I'm really very blessed and very lucky.
And there's a reason, I suppose, I've become more spiritual and that people are kinda. And loving. And my approach to people now is much more tolerant and much more.
I try to be less judgmental and much more tolerant, much more kind and patient, because a lot of people had to put up with a lot, especially when I was on steroids. I was on horrible prednisone, and I would just blow up at people, and I just got so enraged. And that's just the drugs. But still, it was, it was really awful. But, you know, my mother was there. You know, when you go back and you be with your, your birth family, there's all of these buttons that get.
[00:31:30] Speaker C: Pushed and, yes, yes, there are.
[00:31:35] Speaker B: You get right back into the middle of it and.
And so very close to my mother, but, boy, does she, um, still get on my, on my nerves. But. But she, um, she was really there in a, in a. In a big way. And she wrote to her friends how I was doing on, on my, on my recovery. My sister, as I said, was there. You know, she had to sign all the divorce documents. And my brother was there. My. My best friend from college, he flew out, and, um, you know, Mike. Mike, my cousins, you know, came in and out, and just people in general, you know, now I kind of have a very, very rich life, but the way to get it is you just have to go and get it. That's the only way I can do to describe it. Yeah.
[00:32:35] Speaker C: I mean, cancer is that thing that none of us ever wanted. But I can tell that you have been open to the lessons that it can teach you, right?
[00:32:43] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:32:44] Speaker C: And that that's all you can ask for, because we can't get around the. The mess that is cancer. But you can look for the good and the lessons that you can gain from it. And it sounds like you've done that, which is great.
So I have one more question, a little more lighthearted. So marshmallows over a campfire, slow and steady or flamin crispy?
[00:33:05] Speaker B: I like slow and steady steady the most.
[00:33:08] Speaker C: Just kind of keep it going so it's nice and golden brown.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: Exactly. That's definitely my style.
[00:33:16] Speaker C: Well, Bill, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for being vulnerable, for sharing all that you have, and we really appreciate you being here.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: Thank you very much, Gail. Thank you very, very much. I appreciate it very much for all of you listening.
[00:33:30] Speaker C: Until the next time we gather around the campfire, keep living beyond cancer.
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