When Cancer Hits Home: Origin Stories

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. My name is Nancy Farrow, also known as Mama Lou, and I'm the founder of Epic Experience. Epic Experience mission is to empower adult cancer survivors and thrivers to live beyond cancer. I hope that as you listen to campfires of Hope Living beyond Cancer, you find hope, healing and empowerment. Through stories and education, we aim to guide those impacted by cancer and more importantly, offer love and support to anyone out there who needs it. This is beyond Cancer. [00:01:15] Speaker B: Hello, everyone. This is Gail, AKA Sunshine. Welcome to When Cancer Hits Home, a series presented by Epic Experience and Pickles Group, in which we explore what healing looks like for the entire family going through a cancer journey. Today we have the founders of these two organizations, Nancy Farrow and Mark Agnew, joining us around the campfire. So thank you both so much for being here on this inaugural episode. We really appreciate it. So I'm going to start by asking both of you to tell me a little bit about your background. And I always ask people to include one fun fact. And we'll kind of. I'll call on you just so we can kind of go back and forth. So, Nancy, why don't we go with you first? [00:01:57] Speaker A: Hi. Well, welcome. Excited to be here, too. I just retired, so there's a fun fact for you. The end of March. So a zoom call is off my radar right now. But a little bit about myself. I am married with a wonderful husband of 42 years, three wonderful kids, the best grandson in the whole wide world, with two more babies on the way coming in August and October. Shoot. And so excited about that. But my background is I've done worked in development and volunteering. I was volunteer coordinator in a hospital. And then my world was rocked, as was my entire family when our oldest son Michael was diagnosed with cancer. And I saw a need and decided to fill that need for others as well as Michael. Fun fact. This is. Yeah, this is really a hard question. I think I have a lot. But a fun fact I would say is we have raised 10 service dogs for canine companions, for independence. So we're not doing that anymore. We miss it because now we have a ding dong of a dog. But those dogs were smart and wonderful. But that's my fun fact. [00:03:16] Speaker B: You've gotten a couple lovely dogs out of this. [00:03:18] Speaker A: We did. [00:03:19] Speaker B: You definitely have this. [00:03:21] Speaker A: The current guy was not a service dog. And he's a big, lovable English cream retriever and loves anybody that wants to pay attention to him. [00:03:32] Speaker B: Mark, how about you? [00:03:34] Speaker C: Wonderful to be here. Nancy, that was awesome. Great. Great to meet you virtually. Mark Agnew. I. I'm married, going on 20 years. We're celebrating our 20th anniversary this August. We have four wonderful children. One's about to drive, which is a little nerve wracking. [00:03:54] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:55] Speaker C: And then I was in finance for a while. I got my MBA from University of Chicago. I was recruited by a family at a restaurant business called Lou Malnati's Pizza. Best pizza in the world. So I helped the family lead that business for about 10 years. And then, like Nancy, I was rocked by my own cancer diagnosis. I got diagnosed with brain cancer six years ago, which led to, you know, the next chapter of my life. And it's been great and hard and inspiring and I've met so many awesome people. So I'm very blessed to be here. [00:04:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Your fun fact. [00:04:40] Speaker C: My fun fact. And I also teach at University of Chicago. My fun fact is I took my mother on a surprise skydiving for Mother's Day about 20 years ago. [00:04:53] Speaker B: And that, oh, my. [00:04:55] Speaker C: That was a fun, fun. [00:04:56] Speaker B: How did mom respond? That's what I want to know. [00:04:59] Speaker C: She's like, honey, are you doing okay? She was like, she's trying to play it off like she's taking care of me and she's nervous and we survived. And that was a great memory that I have with my mom. [00:05:11] Speaker B: That is amazing. That is. I have not had that one at all on the, on any of our episodes. So. [00:05:19] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:19] Speaker B: You've both alluded to the fact that cancer rocked your world in different ways. So I'd like you to tell me a little bit more about your personal connection with cancer, how it impacted your family and how it impacted the relationships within your family. And Mark, I'll start with you. [00:05:36] Speaker C: Well, my. So I got diagnosed six, six and a half years ago with brain cancer. It was a shock. I had a grand mal seizure, rush for hospital, and I got, you know, diagnosed, you know, two weeks later with a awake brain surgery. The. It was, it was traumatic. It felt like a grenade went off in her family. But I, I knew right away, even before surgery, like, that there's a reason for this. I got really, you know, like, there, there's something. God and, or something. The world has a plan for us to go on this journey together as a family. I didn't really know what it was. And I got a really bad, hard surgery that had difficult recovery. But six months into chemotherapy after surgery, my fourth grade daughter at the time, who's now going to be driving came up to me and it's like, dad, you know, I want to get around other kids that are going through similar circumstances as we are as a fourth grader. I was surprised and impressed. So I called a couple of other families, the Smith family and the Havlachek family that are kind of neighbors, and we got together as. As units like the three family unit with a psycho child life psychotherapist. And that's what, that's when I think the magic happened and we, we started laughing and learning and creating community and. And that's the. The real, the origin of that. What we created is called the Pickles group, which helps kids with parent of parent with cancer get community support, you know, friends out of. Out of a common situation. And so that's been five years in the making. We're growing, we're doing awesome work. I'm so proud of the stuff that we're doing. And, and it's the ultimate, like turning lemons into lemonade. I think for sure, for us, it's like using the pain, the experience of cancer into purpose, taking control and making it like, really impactful for others. That. That helps me and my kids, my wife heal. [00:08:08] Speaker B: Yeah. How old were your kids when you were diagnosed? So you had a fourth grader, fourth. [00:08:13] Speaker C: Grader, second grader, and then twin, I think, like five or six year olds. [00:08:17] Speaker B: Wow. [00:08:18] Speaker C: So now they're. The twins are almost 11, and they're kind of growing up with the, the, the this, The Pickles organization. And, and they're. They. They love it and they're like learning to make all these friends and it's, It's. It's amazing how empathetic our kids are with the situation that they're in. I have a scan tomorrow, so everyone, Everyone knows about that and it brings some anxiety and it's like they know that they, that they. We all have support around each other. [00:08:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Would you say that it. The impact for your family is that it's brought you closer, you're able to share? It sounds like you were pretty open about this from the beginning. I mean, were. [00:09:06] Speaker C: I mean, we're trying to be age appropriate. We want to freak out our kids, but we were open. And I think it's brought us closer together. But even more so, it's. It's brought us like, gratitude and empathy and community and like, being there for other people. That's. That's been a huge blessing in my life to understand that, like, I get. I get healed from being there for others and my kids get healed. And, um, and it's fun. It's. And I, I love the community that we've created. Yeah, I, I'm inspired every day by these people that I just recently met. Like, all the walls come down. It's human to human connection. Um, it's. It's really been a blessing in, in so many different ways. [00:09:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:59] Speaker C: Many different ways. I didn't even, didn't even expect when we started people's group. [00:10:04] Speaker B: Well, right. And you use the word fun, which is not normally a word that one might use in connection with cancer, but I know that's true. And Nancy, I know you could say the same thing in terms of what has happened as a result. So, Nancy, I'm going to go to you, and I know yours is the flip. It was you, the parent with a child with cancer. So why don't you kind of tell us your personal connection and how it impacted your family. [00:10:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So when I shared my story more now because it was relevant, like at camp and when we do our programs. When I was 19, I was told I had cancer by a doctor who didn't know what he was talking about. And I didn't. I had to be checked a lot, but I didn't. So I kind of understood that scanxiety. Right. Going in and having to go every three months. But in 2007, again, three kids. Our oldest, Michael, was a senior in college. It was the night before the super bowl, and Michael and Colin Farrow are nothing but about sports. And that day he hit his head. And at the gym where they worked and hit his head, it sounded kind of goofy. They went to the er. It was that serious enough that he just wasn't making sense. They found a benign brain tumor, and it was a pituitary tumor, wasn't cancer, but it still wreaks probably more havoc than his cancer does. But we thought that kind of. That was bad. Right. And the biggest concern about bringing humor in is the boys were more upset because they had to buy their beer. Because Sunday and it's like, I see you. I mean, yeah, that they. You got to have your priorities. But. And then we, we thought that was bad. We're like, we lived through that. Michael's now on this medication, all the stuff that comes with that, even though it wasn't cancer. And six months later, Michael, who when he was younger had something happen with an ascended testicle. And they always said to keep an eye out. And six months later, he felt a lump and was diagnosed with testicular cancer. And at first he called me, said, mom, I got a lump. He was going to be starting his brand new job. He had graduated from college and then he called. He goes, oh, that lump went away. Went away. Then he comes back, starts his job in Denver with Enterprise Rent a Car. They were amazing to work for. But he calls me 30 days in and says, you know, that lump. And thank goodness he did. He said, it's still there. And so that rocked our world, to say the least. Colin was at the same university at Regis University, which was amazing when Michael was diagnosed to both the boys. And then our daughter was a senior in high school. We flew her in right away because we lived in California at the time. So we flew her in for that first surgery. And it's just a whirlwind. I mean, we owe. Always talk at camp. It's like Charlie Brown and nobody's hearing anything. And another fun fact. Well, no, I won't go there. That'd be too personal. Michael get mad. [00:13:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:20] Speaker A: You hear about that? Yeah, yeah. You've heard that story. But we won't share it here, so anybody's gonna have to ask me on that one. But it just. Yeah. I mean, the impact on our family. We first. It was like, head down. [00:13:34] Speaker B: We. [00:13:34] Speaker A: What do we got to do? Kind of just, you know, everything that comes along with it. And Michael was able to go back to work. He had two major surgeries. One in Denver, one in Indiana with Dr. Einhorn is the oncologist who's the guru of testicular cancer. And I realized, like our daughter for the first surgery, we flew her in. Well, that was in and out for the day. It was. We kept hoping they'd keep Michael overnight. He doesn't handle anesthesia well, so he had a bucket. We'll just say that. And. But then we went to Indiana for this second opinion. And Michael elected for something called a major surgery. They're taking all the lymph nodes rpmd of your. Your gut. Because testicular cancer will move to the lungs and brain and carries in California in high school. And two years later, we find out, and we thought we were communicating a lot, that she thought that surgery was in and out for the day, not that he was in the hospital for six days on major narcotics. We drove. Yeah. So the things that slipped through the crack for everybody else. [00:14:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. How did that impact your relationships? Was there strain because Carrie was younger and felt left out in any way, or. [00:15:02] Speaker A: I would say, you know, she and I have talked about. It took two years for her to kind of say, because when her brothers were a senior in high school, we, you know, proms. Everything was at our house or their friend's house. We Were there for it all while someone for her. And we were trying to go back and forth and do our best. She had a fashion show at her school, and I flew back, and I look at pictures and I just look like a zombie. But I think I gotta try. [00:15:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:30] Speaker A: Water polo coach punished her for a game because she came to Denver for the surgery. And we go to the game when we're there, and, you know, the coach, she's crying and she's tough as nails on the pool deck, and she's just bawling her eyes out. We're like, nope, can't go down there. She's. Senior coach is going over there, and then all of a sudden, the other coach comes up, the one who docked her for missing a practice because she was with her brother having cancer surgery. And he comes behind me and my husband and says, Mrs. Farrow, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And I was so angry because I knew. And I. I can't repeat what I said because it was colorful language to him. I go apologize to her. [00:16:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:22] Speaker A: And, you know, those are the things we kind of realized. We were trying so hard to keep it, you know, together, but that second surgery was really hard. And finding out so much longer, I. She understood because she was old enough that we would do the same thing for her. God willing. That never happened. But at the same point, she knew what she was missing without us there. [00:16:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:52] Speaker A: And, you know, didn't talk about a lot of things in deep detail except the mechanics. [00:17:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:03] Speaker A: Because it's like, you know, my first thought was when I was sitting in the room and they said Michael had cancer, my first thought is, is he gonna die? And I think that is what everybody thinks. And I've learned that. Or 13 years. Yeah. Yeah. [00:17:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Actually, that's an interesting point, Mark. I'm wondering if your kids asked you that when you told them. [00:17:27] Speaker C: Not. They didn't ask me, like that. Direct. [00:17:30] Speaker B: Like that. Directly. Okay. [00:17:31] Speaker C: The first thing I thought of is, like, I was like, what. What am I to do with my kids? And what am I. I was so worried about my kids and my wife. [00:17:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:42] Speaker C: It was a brain cancer, so I assumed I was going to die. [00:17:45] Speaker B: Right. [00:17:46] Speaker C: I. I'm so. I'm happy I'm still here at six and a half years later. [00:17:49] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:50] Speaker C: But what we found with Pickles Group. And like, a lot of these kids, they're scared to ask their parents questions because they don't want to put any pressure on the parents going through the treatment and the caregiver the spouse. So when they're alone, they can ask questions like, is cancer contagious? They go, they're going to school thinking, can I get it? And can I give it to my friends? They're asking like, will cancer kill my parent? We have all these methods to answer those questions, age appropriately with data and facts. [00:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:30] Speaker C: What's amazing about like a 10 year old is they understand what's going on. And absolutely. They actually. And they ask, they ask, they ask questions that are really intelligent. So we believe this. This Pickles group is backed by data and science that giving them age appropriate information will actually help them and help their healing process versus sweeping under the rub and saying, I'm going to be okay and I just gotta get through this. [00:19:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:04] Speaker C: They have all these questions and most kids don't want to burden their parent with those questions. [00:19:11] Speaker A: And I would say on the opposite side of that, see, Michael and I, when we would be driving to a doctor's appointment, there are no questions asked. And I remember one time, because I think this is a difference, you know, And I think what's wonderful I've learned about kids, they will ask questions when given the opportunity, but adults, sometimes everybody's protecting each other. And we were driving to a doctor's appointment and Michael and I are in the car, always quiet it because we're both like. And I just said to him, I said, michael, you can say whatever you want to me. He goes, no, I can't. I don't want to scare you. And I said, I said, I'm thinking 20 times worse because I have no control in this. I have nothing. All I can do is try my best. And I think I've learned that through epic. I mean, most adults, and I always encourage them, I go talk to your kids. Those little kids are way smarter than adults. [00:20:05] Speaker B: Yep, yep. Yeah. Mark, you, when you shared earlier, you talked about how this happened so organically. Right. I mean, it was just your three families kind of coming together in this support group through that and through the official formation of Pickles. Is there a message or takeaway that you would want to share with families facing cancer? [00:20:29] Speaker C: Great question. It's going to be okay. You know, any in any outcome is. Could be okay. Your kids are resilient. The house isn't on fire. Like right when I got that diagnosis, I wanted to get the, the tumor removed. I always tell people, like, your house is on fire unless the doctor say it's on fire. But typically it's not on fire. So have some time to like plan and, and Pray and do whatever you need to do to get in the space to where you can. [00:21:00] Speaker B: And. [00:21:03] Speaker C: There'S a lot of blessings that happen with this. Like I always say, like, I, I, I wouldn't choose to be part of this community, this cancer community, but I'm so glad I am. [00:21:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:16] Speaker C: And so I, I, I, I talked to people and people are like, are you serious? I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's serious. [00:21:24] Speaker A: I, but they don't get it unless they're in the club, which is good. But yeah. [00:21:31] Speaker C: And it's, it's really helped me like do like the work that I'm doing, like purpose and, and gratitude and making every day count. And so it, in many ways I'm really happy this happened to our family. And, and, and some days, like tomorrow I'm going to Indianapolis again. It's like, that's not a fun day. [00:21:53] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:54] Speaker C: And so it's going to be okay. Your kids are going to be resilient. Kids are resilient. Get support, talk about it and get all support. Like just being on this, the zoom meeting with the two of you, it's like I'm so happy I got the chance to meet you both and hear Nancy's story and their family story and sounds like I would love to hang out with Michael. [00:22:21] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:22] Speaker A: He's a lot of fun. He is. And I will say in similar to what you said, it's okay. Mark, at one point when we were going through the thick of it, because it never goes away. As you know, once you're told there's always follow up scans and our line is it's okay, we just don't know what okay is. [00:22:39] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:40] Speaker B: Yeah. So yeah. Nancy, can you share a little bit more about your. The origin story of, of Epic based on your experience with Michael and then also what you would want people to, to take away. [00:22:54] Speaker A: Yeah. So Michael was diagnosed in 2007 and to say he went into a deep, dark depression is an understatement. He had a great job. They were wonderful. They let him stick, you know, around. Then all of a sudden In December of 2007, he goes back to work, falls, slips, breaks his ankle in three places. Paramedics come and his boss, Michael, screaming, just screaming. And the, his boss is going, no, you don't understand. He's had a bad year. He's had a brain, that cancer and now this. And so after a while he ended up coming back to Sacramento where we lived at the time. And he just was not in a good space. It was dark, it was, he I'm not working. I, I just angry. That's when the anger hit. I mean, the, the treatments were behind for the most part. He ended up having brain surgery to remove the pituitary tumor, which is now growing back, but that's a whole nother thing. And so I just saw a need. I mean, I, my life has been, you know, I volunteered a lot, planned a lot of stuff, worked in hospitals and he, but he went on a program for young adults and came back and we were like, there he is, that annoying son of ours, laughing again and being sarcastic. And I just saw the need and I, I met Abby Stibel. So I do have a co founder. Abby stepped back. She was a PA at Huntsman Cancer center in Salt Lake City. And she and I. Should we do this? Should we do this? We can do this. Want to do it for all adults? 18. Our oldest camper has been 80 years old. And the people who owned the ranch, she and I had met, we became good friends. And they're like, I was talking to them and they're like, do you want to use the ranch to start a non profit? I was like, well, I guess that's the biggest gift that just, you know. And at 56 years old, my friends are talking retirement and I'm like, well, I'm starting a non profit and it's been, you know, my kids look at me cross eyed when I say the biggest blessing of my life. Obviously my kids. But to watch so many people, sunshine, you included, you know, just watch them from a Sunday to a Saturday, or even if they don't come to camp, when I get a chance to talk to them, if I've helped somebody because I just encouraged, because they've called and I'm like, ask for the second opinion. You know, do this. That's why when we started the podcast, I share that now pretty much above everything else with somebody newly diagnosed and because it's like people don't want to ask, they're afraid to ask for help. They think their questions are silly. And the podcast, I think, offers up such a wonderful venue to hear from others, to feel like, oh, yeah, everybody feels this way. [00:26:01] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think that is one of the, the chief benefits is to know they're not alone, that other people have gone through the same experience, at least on some level, have had the same questions and things like that. So what would, based on the camps, how many have there been now? 75. [00:26:19] Speaker A: 75 this summer. I retired the end of March. I tell you, it's not as Easy as poor Colin. I'm like, well, what can I do now? But. [00:26:30] Speaker B: So what message, your takeaway would. Would you give to. To families facing camp cancer based on that experience of 75 camps? [00:26:39] Speaker A: All the people that look at me and I can tell, you know, because Mark hasn't been to camp yet, so hopefully you will be at some point. Because the one thing I probably get the most tired of hearing from people. Oh, it was too long ago. There's more people that need it more than I do. No, everybody needs it. [00:26:56] Speaker B: Everybody. [00:26:57] Speaker A: And if it's not us, there's other programs out there. If it's a one day regional program with us. But find a community, you know, like kids, but adults, you know, so often are like, I'm fine. And it's like, I call a big BS on that one, because nobody's fine with a cancer diagnosis. So that's my biggest take away. Just whether it's us or anybody else, try and find that place where you can have the freedom to say how you feel. Because there are things we don't want to say to our family. And I get it. [00:27:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:34] Speaker A: I just had that experience at a regional day with a husband and wife regionally recently. He wanted to start talking about hospice. And she was standing right there. She goes, I can't do it. I can't do it. And I was like, you know, she walked away. And I, you know, he continued. I said, you know, and we talked about it and. And it's understandable. It's all scary stuff. [00:27:57] Speaker B: Definitely. Yeah. Is there anything else that I'm gonna ask both of you? This. Is there anything else that you would want to share with someone listening that I haven't specifically asked you? Whether it's about the community, lessons you've learned in working with either the kids or the adults. Message for caregivers. Anything I haven't asked you about, Mark. [00:28:20] Speaker C: I just, I. You've done an awesome job, Gail. I think just empowering the kids that are impacted and. Because what's. What we've seen at Pickles is like these kids that join, they want to help the other kids that. That was joining and that heals them. So, like. Like, I would encourage parents that have. That kids that. That are diagnosed to really let. Let the kids heal by talking about it, doing groups in their school, joining Pickles group. What? Just, just. I've seen so many families want to just sweep it under the rug, which is. Which is a personal decision, but I've seen so many kids flourish when they create, when they find their Community, like Nancy said. [00:29:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:19] Speaker C: So it's okay to talk about it with the kids. And. And what you said, Nancy, is I totally agree with, like, the kids talk about things a little differently when they're not around their family members or parent. So that's. That's what I've learned. [00:29:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:29:41] Speaker B: So definitely. Do you find. So at Pickles events, are there. I don't know counselors as well as the kids who are present, do you? Yeah, I'm just. [00:29:53] Speaker C: I'm facilitators. [00:29:56] Speaker B: Okay. Do you find that the kids, though, I think you just alluded to this. I just want to clarify. They really find as much help from talking to each other. Not that having those adults isn't important, but really a lot of their growth, a lot of their healing, a lot of their understanding comes from talking to each other. [00:30:12] Speaker C: That's right. Our tagline is kids supporting kids. [00:30:16] Speaker B: I love it. [00:30:17] Speaker C: So that's what they. That's what we're trying to do is like, just empower the kids to create community and create connections, you know, be there for each other. A lot of times they feel isolated and alone, and so once they find their. Their crew, their community, it. Magic happens. [00:30:39] Speaker B: Yeah. That's great. Nancy, how about you? Anything else that you would want to share that I haven't specifically asked you about? [00:30:46] Speaker A: You know, it's so funny. It's like Mark and I were like a mirror of cancer. Right. With the kids and the adults. [00:30:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:53] Speaker A: And I would just say, you know, be open to the possibilities of talking to somebody. It's not going to hurt you. It might just help. And I've watched people, friends that are like, no, I'm not coming to epic. I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. Or others. And it doesn't bode well, in my opinion, because that's a lot to keep in. And no matter where it is, even if, like, getting back to the podcast, even if it. You're not talking to somebody else, but you're at least hearing somebody else's journey. Hopefully that helps, because I think the stress of cancer, you know, it's not good. It's not good. And. And adults try and be stoic. You know, adults are being stoic for their kids, they're being stoic for their wife, they're being stoic for their parents, and that's a lot to carry. And just find that something. Find something. [00:31:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I can speak to that. I was one of those who didn't think I needed it, and I needed it in so many ways. And we have joked about it since I was the ultimate stuffer. And it does not work. You will get full at some point. You need to let it out. [00:32:09] Speaker A: So right from crying. And you were mad at us at camp, which we've had to happen quite a bit. And so whenever I happen even more. Yeah. When I have people crying at camp, I'm always like, yes. You know, it's okay to let it down. And even for me, I mean, I will share. Just like for Michael, when he walked out of the ultrasound, he looked at me and said, I have cancer and we're not going to cry about it. And I went, okay, that's what he needs me to do. I didn't cry for, like, two years. [00:32:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:43] Speaker A: I went home and I started writing, which was. Is another great thing to do. And just how I was feeling, because even telling my husband how I was feeling, I didn't really want it. It just makes everything really real. And it's like, I. I don't. This is a nightmare enough. [00:33:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:02] Speaker B: Well, yeah. And that's. I mean, that's. Ultimately it is finding what's best for you in this situation. You know, talking to people, being open to at least talking to people, finding the fun in it. I love that you use that word, Mark, because it's so true. You can still have fun. The rest of life doesn't stop. And in fact, fun can make that the really hard parts a little more bearable, I guess, if we can put it that way. Thank you both so much. This is great. It really is kind of a mirror of. Of the two different experiences. So I always end with a very serious question. Marshmallows over a campfire? Slow and steady or flame and crispy? Mark, how about you? [00:33:43] Speaker C: If you ask my kids, it'd be like the crispy, but I'm flaming slow and steady all the way. [00:33:50] Speaker B: Yeah, Nancy. [00:33:52] Speaker A: Slow and steady all the way. [00:33:55] Speaker B: Mine usually start out slow and steady and end up flaming crispy. [00:33:59] Speaker A: There we go. Well, I'm not saying mind it up that way, but. [00:34:03] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's the desire. [00:34:04] Speaker A: That's the desire. Yeah. Yeah. [00:34:06] Speaker B: Well, thank you both so much again for this first episode in this series. I'm really looking forward to all the. The rest of the people that we get to talk to in this partnership between Epic Experience and Pickles Group. I really appreciate it. And to those of you listening, until the next time we gather around the campfire, keep Living Beyond Cancer. Thank you for listening to this episode of Campfires of Living Beyond Cancer. For more information about Epic Experience and our programs or to donate please visit our website [email protected] Music for this podcast is provided by Moonshiner Collective. 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